Unedited Transcripts

Submersibles! With Hotspur O’Toole and Jasper Kiergarten (Unedited)

Viv Trafalgar: Welcome to the Seventh Aether Salon! (SEVEN!)) We are so pleased to see so many friends here this weekend.
Hotspur Otoole grins in his saintly way, politely looking into the middle distance.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: dont be silly Wiggy, ya can’t tie invisible sharks to string, they eat thier way out
Nabila Nadir: It’s the Steelhead corner
Ambrose Steampunk: bob come sit by your pal ol’ Amby
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: ya need chains
TotalLunar Eclipse: *smiles*
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: i dunno why anyone still here, I just DID the talk
Viv Trafalgar: WELCOME TO the SEVENTH (bob…) Aether Salon!
Ambrose Steampunk: /claps
Viv Trafalgar adjusts hatpins from yelling
Ceejay Writer applauds politely.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter applauds
Viv Trafalgar: Miss Serafina and I are pleased to welcome you to the April Aether Salon – Submersibles! Before we descend into the topic with our two incomparable speakers, we have a few pro forma items.
Viv Trafalgar: Thank you to ZATZAI everyone at Artificial Isle for the fantastic venue and for keeping the salon’s carpet’s clean of diesel oil.
Ghilayne Andrew applauds.
Viv Trafalgar: As many of you know, the Aether Salon meets to discuss steam and victorian topics on the third Sunday of each month, in Palisades, New Babbage.
Viv Trafalgar: We sincerely appreciate the support we receive from everyone in the community, and we humbly thank you all. Many fine people have contributed to today’s salon:
Viv Trafalgar: we are grateful to Miss Ceejay Writer, Miss Breezy Carver, Miss Redgrrl Llewellyn, Canolli Capalini of Capalini Fine Furnishings for the chairs, and Beq Janus, Dreddpirate Bob for their assistance with the craft (which I’ll put out with an insurance disclaimer at the end of the Salon).
Viv Trafalgar: Finally, I want to personally thank my most amazing and talented co-host, Serafina Puchkina – she is a true friend and ally and keeps me mostly sane, most of the time.
Viv Trafalgar: Please hold your questions until the end, and as a courtesy to all, please turn off everything that feeds the lag monster: all HUDs, scripts, AOs and so on. Please no weapons, bombs, or biting, without at least a modicum of wit accompanying.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: yeah right!
Viv Trafalgar: Mark your calendars for upcoming salons:
Viv Trafalgar: Engines! in May, Fey! in June. After a brief hiatus, we’ll return in September with Airships!, and Haberdashery! In October.
Viv Trafalgar: We’re keeping a log of things “overheard at the salon” on aethersalon.blogspot.com just in case you’re looking for a good laugh.
Hotspur Otoole: Airships, I must attend that.
Viv Trafalgar: Please join the Aether Salon group (signs are behind you)
Wolf Copperfield: oohhh airships
Viv Trafalgar: and receive notifications of future salon events, click the lower right hand corner of the large brown sign by the entrance.
Rhianon Jameson jots down dates and subjects, and includes the exclamation point each time.
Viv Trafalgar: (yay Penelope! Thank you so much for rounding up stragglers at Palisades!)
Viv Trafalgar: As a reminder, all tip jar donations go directly to the speakers.
Viv Trafalgar: If you need a salon chair
Viv Trafalgar: please IM me
Viv Trafalgar: and now
Viv Trafalgar: Hang on to your air supply as I welcome my co-host Miss Serafina Puchkina.
Penelope Strathearn: *smile*
Viv Trafalgar: who will introduce the speakers
Hotspur Otoole: I will be donating mine to the Aether Salon, if that helps you make up your mind. 😀
Gatsby Szuster: waves to all the gray people
Serafina Puchkina: Today I am honored to introduce our two eminently qualified speakers.
Redgrrl Llewellyn: Awwww that’s sweet Hotsy! [grins]
Rhianon Jameson: Hotsy?
Serafina Puchkina: Mr. Jasper Kiergarten is a world traveler, settling in New Babbage and Armada- Breakaway after living most recently in Japan.
Serafina Puchkina: During his travels he acquired extensive knowledge of warfare and weaponry. As a builder, vehicle crafter and gunsmith, he owns Kiergarten Mfg & Textiles, Armory, and Cannonade.
Wiggy Undertone: Hello Roman! Didn’t see you back there.
Redgrrl Llewellyn: grins over to Miss Jameson says in sotto voice] he *loves* that!
Serafina Puchkina: He has crafted, among many historical replicas, fine, high-detail firearms and (the subject of his talk today) a highly detailed replica of the CSS Hunley, the first successful, operational submarine. You can see pictures of his work at http://www.flickr.com/photos/28364869@N06/2723555355/in/photostream/
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Guns!
Rhianon Jameson grins.
Serafina Puchkina: Mr. Kiergarten’s firearms are prized among weapon enthusiasts for their ease of handling and historical accuracy.
Jasper Kiergarten: 🙂
Serafina Puchkina: In real life, Mr. Kiergarten has long been interested in naval history and in the 19th century. He is a talented professional musician, artist, and MST3K enthusiast, none of which pertains to today’s topic, but illustrate his versatility and coolness.
Hotspur Otoole: I’ll say!
Nabila Nadir: lol
Bookworm Hienrichs cheers for MST3K.
Serafina Puchkina: Our second speaker is Commodore Hotspur O’Toole. Commodore O’Toole is a scion of an old Irish family that has seen much service on land and on sea.
Hotspur Otoole: Movie sign!
Jasper Kiergarten: chuckles
Jasper Kiergarten: 🙂
CeAire Decosta pulling on my shoe as I run in!!
Wiggy Undertone wonders what MST3K is
Jasper Kiergarten: shakes head
Ceejay Writer: Push the button, Jasper!
Serafina Puchkina: Initially, Hotspur followed in the family trade, taking service in India and later China, where he served as a very young subaltern. Of a restless nature, he wandered far and wide until his footsteps brought him to Caledon, where he served in various military organizations before starting the Caledon Middlesea Fleet which disbanded in 2008 after fighting many battles.
Ceejay Writer: (Ask me later, Wiggy.)
Serafina Puchkina: Currently O’Toole is head of a “stateless” 19th century themed and equipped RPG naval fleet called “The Fleet of Wrath Exiles” which is primarily based at Port Merrimac, Roatan and Port Harbor, Steelhead. The Wrath Fleet is primarily ironclad based, with a few submersibles and some steampunk style airships and aether flyers.
Hawc Decosta: Greetings Rittmaster, Hotspur, and All!
Serafina Puchkina: The Wrath Exiles fight regular Ironclad battles at the Port, Thursday nights, at 730 PM SLT: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Roatan/157/110/24
TotalLunar Eclipse: Welcome Professor *smiles*
Serafina Puchkina: In real life, Hotspur is an avid amateur historian that hails from a multi-generational naval family in the United States. His particular interest is Ironclads, pre-dreadnoughts, and transitional 19th century naval technologies.
Serafina Puchkina: Websites: Hibernia on the Skids- http://hiberniaskids.blogspot.com Wrath Fleet Aether HQ- http://sites.google.com/site/wrathexiles/Home Scéal an ghamhna bhuí (storytelling) – http://talltalesofhibernia.blogspot.com/ If you are interested in 19th century naval activities in world, please contact Hotspur Otoole (without the apostrophe) in world.
Serafina Puchkina: Please join me in welcoming our two speakers
Serafina Puchkina applauds
Viv Trafalgar Cheers!
Bookworm Hienrichs applauds.
Jedburgh30 Dagger: HOOOAH!
Rhianon Jameson applauds
Boh Benoir: Huzzah!
Redgrrl Llewellyn: claps and smiles
Ceejay Writer claps loudly.
Ambrose Steampunk: Aye!
Elleon Bergamasco applauds
TotalLunar Eclipse: Hoooo!
Redgrrl Llewellyn: giggles at Elle’s tag
Petunia Schism: applauds
Elleon Bergamasco removes her hat
Hotspur Otoole is glad Jasper is going first. 😀
Pepys Ponnier: I LIKE CAKE!!
Elleon Bergamasco winks at Bob
Breezy Carver: smilesss
Breezy Carver: ☆smiles ☆
Hawc Decosta: .-‘`’-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-‘`’-.
Hawc Decosta: Bravo!
Redgrrl Llewellyn: smiles back
Breezy Carver: swoooon William Shanter
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: /applauds
Viv Trafalgar shouts: hopes people in the back can hear Hotspur if not, please move closer
Leonardo Serrao: Hello all, sorry I am late..as ever
Jedburgh30 Dagger: can’t help but hear Hotspur
Hotspur Otoole: I’ll be walking around during my bit, Viv. Not to worry.
Ambrose Steampunk: Breezy lovely dress
Viv Trafalgar: aye hotspur, but you were the one on stage saying something 🙂
Ghilayne Andrew smiles and waves to Breezy.
Jasper Kiergarten: Good afternoon everyone
Viv Trafalgar: yay!
Breezy Carver: smiles and wavesssss
Jasper Kiergarten: I’m suffering a very ill-timed lag wave, so do bear with me
Jasper Kiergarten: Glad to see you all, and I’m glad to see so many people coming out to support the salon. Its an honor to have been asked to speak this afternoon, and I do hope you will enjoy my small presentation.
Jasper Kiergarten: And a big thank you to ZATZAi Asturias for allowing us to hold this month’s salon here, in this perfect setting.
Jasper Kiergarten: Today, I will be discussing the Civil War submarine, the CSS Hunley, and more specifically, the research and construction of my replicas.
Jasper Kiergarten: I have long found the Hunley a fascinating vessel (submarines in general being of keen interest to my typist).
Jasper Kiergarten: Its history, its successes and its mysterious loss.
Jasper Kiergarten: I thought it would be an excellent project to make in SL, and, as I was hoping to make a vehicle to use in ironclad battles, it seemed an even better project to take on.
Jasper Kiergarten: This project also coincided with my introduction into making sculpties, so, as my experience with sculpties improved, so did the quality of both builds.
Jasper Kiergarten: As I started, research proved a bit of a challenge, as artists renderings, various diagrams all varied, in some cases, substantially.
Jasper Kiergarten: I poured over pictures, sketches and plans trying to figure out exactly what it looked like. Between pictures of the wreck, the several replicas at various museums, technical sketches, and several modern artists’ renderings
Jasper Kiergarten: and chose features which particularly appealed to me, while still being historically accurate, or at the least, reasonably historically plausible.
Jasper Kiergarten: Initially, I had intended to make only the vehicle version. But, as the hull was completed, and fitting out with parts began, the more interesting the idea to make a cutaway version with complete interior became. And so, as the worked progressed, a more detailed version with a visible interior was developing in my mind.
Jasper Kiergarten: I began by simply making the hull with standard prims. Really not much to it.
Jasper Kiergarten: With the help of several good websites and a number of books in my personal library, I got the overall dimensions approximated and went from there.
Jasper Kiergarten: I will be delving into a good bit of technical info on my builds
Jasper Kiergarten: I hope I don’t put anyone to sleep 😀
Jasper Kiergarten: anyway
Jasper Kiergarten: Vehicles have a 32 prim limit. In other words, a standard LSL vehicle script will only work on a vehicle made up of no more than 32 prims. The pilot, the avatar controlling the vehicle, counts as a prim as well, so it’s really a 31 prim limit.
Redgrrl Llewellyn: Mmmm naval history shipbuilding Pr0n!
Jasper Kiergarten: XD
Pepys Ponnier: (found that out the hard way)
JB Hancroft chuckles… and prims! woo hoo!
Viv Trafalgar chuckles
Jasper Kiergarten: This poses a particular problem for me as I am very seriously focused on details, so whenever I build something, my desire is to make it as detailed and close to the real thing as possible. This is not an easy task when you are impaired by such a meagar prim allotment as that which are imposed upon SL vehicles.
Leonardo Serrao: Hi red, nice to see you again
Redgrrl Llewellyn: smiles and waves]
Jasper Kiergarten: So, with this in mind, on a complicated build, my usual method is to build it the way it was envisioned, and then begin trimming off lesser or unnecessary details.
Jasper Kiergarten: I prioritize the various components. The hull, control surfaces and propulsion components being priority #1. The things you have to have, if nothing else.
Jasper Kiergarten: Then, other major features, in the case of the Hunley, the two dorsal copulas fore and aft on the boat, the main spar and torpedo, and perhaps the keel ballast on the belly of the hull (which, I might add, are currently not accurately rendered. I do plan to remedy that soon. With the new version of ICS out, this feature will be included in the next update).
Jasper Kiergarten: After that, came the smaller details. Extra spar supports, the vanes a fore of the copulas, the spike on the end of the spar. Then, if I have any prims left, perhaps ropes and fittings. “Style points”, as Miss Trafalgar likes to put it.
Jasper Kiergarten: For the ICS version, sculpties allowed me to make the screw (originally made by Greg Merryman), screw housing supports, the entire spar with supports, a detailed breather box, the dual breather tubes, the spool for the charge detonation chord, the dive planes and the vanes a fore of the dive planes, all out of single prims, turning 22-23 prims into 8!
Jasper Kiergarten: This then opened up the prim headroom to allow for minor details such as the det chord, made of three sculpties, and the support line strung from the upper spar to the main spar, as well as the eye loops to run the chords through.
Jasper Kiergarten: That got pretty much everything there was to get into a functional vehicle, bringing the total prim count to 31, with one prim to spare for the pilot.
Viv Trafalgar notes Mr. Kiergarten’s glee over details
CeAire Decosta: /the “details” make it real!!
Langain Aya: haven’t rezzed everyone yet, I’m not standing on anyone am I?
Jasper Kiergarten: sorry
Jasper Kiergarten: froze up
Jasper Kiergarten: can everyone see me?
Jasper Kiergarten: I’m told I’m invisible
Rhianon Jameson nods
Ceejay Writer: Jasper, yes!
Jasper Kiergarten: ok
Ceejay Writer: You look dashingly handsome to me.
Penelope Strathearn: See you
Jasper Kiergarten: ty
Langain Aya: everyone’s invisible for me right now lol
Jasper Kiergarten: 😀
Wiggy Undertone moves his foot out from under Lagain’s and winces
Jasper Kiergarten: so,
Viv Trafalgar: hehe
Jasper Kiergarten: Using an early version of Greg Merryman’s airship script, he and I made it work as a sub script, slowing it down and locking it no higher than sea level. Then came the appropriate ICS scripts and it was ready to go, and, it has been for sale in my armory, as well as Bela Lubezki’s factory (and now also at Kiergarten Cannonade, at Armada Breakaway) for a while.
Langain Aya: oops, sorry mr. Undertone
Jasper Kiergarten: With that model complete and up for sale, I set to work on the cutaway version.
Jasper Kiergarten: which you can see behind me and just above
Jasper Kiergarten: This started with an unscripted version with which I could add the new details. It also required a reworked texture as an alpha with the hull cut away so the interior would be visible. Then I started to work fitting out the interior.
Jasper Kiergarten: From here, I started with the simple stuff. The main components of the pilot’s station, the bulkheads, the water within the ballast tanks, the crew bench and the wheels and belts which operated the screw shaft.
Viv Trafalgar peers closely at the model
Jasper Kiergarten: Then came the details, most of which were sculpted, both to save on prims, and also to render shapes which couldn’t otherwise easily have been rendered. Included in this phase were full fore and aft ballast tank pumps, with full plumbing, fore and aft ballast tank flood valves, the hand crank and mounting brackets, and the air pump bellows.
Jasper Kiergarten: yes, please do
Jasper Kiergarten: much to see
Jasper Kiergarten: Still to come are a few smaller details,to the structure, and personal details, like a candle, maps and such, to give it the lived in feel, but, as you can see, it is mostly complete.
Serafina Puchkina whispers how impressed she is
JB Hancroft nods at Serafina… amazing, isn’t it?
Jasper Kiergarten: It currently stands at 171 prims, though there are several parts which could still be made as sculpties, which are now made from standard prims, and that would knock that back down a fair amount. But, it will still be a prim heavy beast.
Wiggy Undertone: I love the accuracy of the model! Are the scale dimensions correct as well?
Jasper Kiergarten: pretty close, yes
Viv Trafalgar grins – great question
Aquaria Semyorka: and how long did it take to construct this?
Jasper Kiergarten: I’ve been working on it for about a year, but most of the work took about a month, maybe two
Jasper Kiergarten: Nearly all of the textures are original and were made in Photoshop. There are also a few library and freebie textures as well, for minor details.
JB Hancroft: This is an amazing model. I expect that some of the Maritime Museums would be interested in knowing that it exists, in VR
Jasper Kiergarten: indeed
Jasper Kiergarten: I’m not certain what the final plan is for the display model. Perhaps I’ll offer it for sale, though the high prim count makes it impractical for the average SL’er to display in their home or shop. Perhaps museums will be interested? We’ll see.
Langain Aya: it’s great!
Jasper Kiergarten: Anyway, that’s about it. I hope you’ve all enjoyed my presentation, and that you’ve found it informative and interesting.
Jasper Kiergarten: Thank you.
Viv Trafalgar claps
Ghilayne Andrew nods. “It’s beautiful, and lovely presentation!”
CeAire Decosta: .-‘`’-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-‘`’-.
CeAire Decosta: Bravo!
Serafina Puchkina applauds
Hotspur Otoole applauds Mr. K. Well done sir!
Serafina Puchkina: so impressive
Bookworm Hienrichs applauds.
Remington Pinion: Hoooo!
Jedburgh30 Dagger: applauds
Rhianon Jameson applauds
Hawc Decosta: Hoooo!
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: wonderful sir! very impressive!
Petunia Schism: Bravo!
Penelope Strathearn: *applause*
Hawc Decosta: .-‘`’-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-‘`’-.
Hawc Decosta: Bravo!
Viv Trafalgar: Well Done Mr. Kiergarten!
Langain Aya claps
Jasper Kiergarten: :bows
JB Hancroft: Very well done… thank you, Sir! APPLAUSE
Tensai Hilra: Very nice work!
Pepys Ponnier: YAAAAAAAY!
Jasper Kiergarten: ty ty
Hawc Decosta: A great model!
Viv Trafalgar: ::clears her throat::
CeAire Decosta: For scale purposes are there any plans to include a representation of a sailor at their work?
Viv Trafalgar: Next up is Commodore O’Toole
Viv Trafalgar: please give him your attention and both speakers will take questions at the end
Hotspur Otoole: Good evening ladies and gentlemen!
Wiggy Undertone waves to Hotspur
Hotspur Otoole: Thank you for coming out tonight, and thank you to our hosts, and the Autocrat of this land, Mr. Asturias.
Hotspur Otoole: Much like in real life, I’m a bit animated as a speaker.
Hotspur Otoole: so if you will bear with me and shift your attention to the big slide show behind you, we’re going to talk about the history of Submersibles up until the end of the war.
Viv Trafalgar: watches all the salon chairs turn…
Hotspur Otoole: As in the American Civil War, or “the Great Unpleasantness”
Hotspur Otoole: “Submersibles, or, as we call them in modern times, Submarines, are not a modern concept. Inventors and theorists through the ages have seen the value of a platform that could travel under the waves and return with crew intact. The history of submersibles is dramatic and contains few successes and many failures. We’ll be talking about failure here tonight, ladies and gentlemen, LOTS and LOTS of failure. Failure was part of the process of making a viable submersible platform that could be used as a weapon in wartime or for salvage purposes in peacetime. All too often, failure equaled death for all concerned. ”
Rhianon Jameson: Or “the recent unpleasantness,” to a Southerner. 🙂
Nocti Heliosense: …or “War of Northern Aggression”.
Rhianon Jameson nods at Miss Heliosense.
Jedburgh30 Dagger: smiles
JB Hancroft: Indeed, Miss Heliosense
Hotspur Otoole: Let us not interject such sentiments, we shall be cool calm and collected about our sympathies, .. 😀
Hotspur Otoole: Many people in the audience probably grew up having heard of the almost suicidally brave crew of the CSS. Hunley, making a run on the USS Housatanic, dying in the attempt, and maybe you have been taught “this was the first submersible!” by your school system, or something to that effect. It wasn’t. It WAS the first CONFIRMED submersible attack on an enemy warship that met with ANY measure of success recorded in history, and that is no small achievement! SOME of you may also have heard about the brave little “Turtle” that sank a British man-o-war during the American Revolution. The Turtle was neither a true submersible, nor did it meet with any measure of success– but we’ll give it a nod in our timeline. The truth is, The Hunley’s feat is a singular achievement, because so many factors were working against success. For that reason, I have tried to keep tonight’s talk focused on the American civil war, which is a true milestone.
Langain Aya: ok, fk for a few, finally caught the mole that’s gotten in my house and taking him across the street, brb
Viv Trafalgar chuckles
Hotspur Otoole: Here’s the important thing to remember about Submersibles, or Submarines..
Redgrrl Llewellyn: attends
Hotspur Otoole: The threat they represented was far more important than anything they actually accomplished.
Hotspur Otoole: At least, in this time period. 😀
Viv Trafalgar: ahh good marketing then, is what you’re saying
Petunia Schism has had bosses like that
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: shush Viv! Hotspurs talking
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: tch tch tch
Viv Trafalgar Snorts
Hotspur Otoole: Rich, powerful countries with large standing fleets didn’t invest in submersible development until they absolutely had to to keep up with everyone else. In times of war, the side with an economic or fleet disadvantage usually is the first to attempt to use submersibles, and often for strategic, rather than tactical advantage. Submarines were deployed to break blockades and to attack merchant shipping of an enemy. Even as late as World War II, the number of incidents when surface warships were sunk by submersibles were relatively few when compared to sinking merchant shipping. However, the amount of money, time, effort, and naval resources spent in response to submarine warfare can be staggering– I cite both World Wars as an example. So the effectiveness of the submersible on the enemy lies more in forcing an enemy response than in actually fighting with him. Submarines fighting with surface boats may be fun to simulate in Second Life, but historically this scenario is unlikely.
Remington Pinion: Thinks of the turtle and Boston harbor during the revolution
Hotspur Otoole: So, in the American Civil War, the Confederate side, facing a large blockading fleet, with less industrial capacity, was focused on weapons that could grant them a strategic advantage… ironclads, blockade runners, and very much, Submersibles.
Hotspur Otoole: Some of the craft we’ll be discussing are not submersibles in the true sense.
Hotspur Otoole: A Submersible is a craft which can, under its own power, submerge under the water, navigate underwater, and hopefully surface again with crew intact. Example: The CSS Hunley, right behind you.
Hotspur Otoole: A Semi-Submersible is a craft that maneuvers on the surface, with decks awash for a low profile and extra protection against small arms fire. Example: The CSS David, above you (creator, Mr. Huszar, in tonight’s audience)
Hotspur Otoole: many of the craft we have assumed are “Submarines” are in fact, semi-submersibles.. such as Bushnell’s brave little Turtle.
Hotspur Otoole: A diving plane, also known as a hydroplane, is a control surface found on submarines which allow the vessel to pitch its bow and stern up or down to assist in the process of submerging or surfacing the boat, as well as controlling depth when submerged. Diving planes are usually fitted in pairs, the bow planes at the front (or sometimes on the fin) of the submarine and the stern planes at the rear…
Hotspur Otoole: in a short sentence, the part that steers it up and down.
Hotspur Otoole: A ballast tank floods with water to equalize buoyancy and provide enough weight for a submarine to descend The was pumped out later to provide float and lift again, raising the sub to the surface.. 19th century engineers (and earlier) understood the nature of buoyancy very well, and water ballast tanks were part of every design that was attempted.
Hotspur Otoole: Ballast tanks, therefore, make the sub “sink”.
Viv Trafalgar ((wishes I’d scripted hydro engineering and taken Hotspur’s course instead))
Hotspur Otoole: For a sub to maneuver under water, it tries to achieve buoyancy… so that it can arrive at an operating depth, not crash to the bottom and maneuver to the objective. 😀
Hotspur Otoole: Propulsion systems were designed to turn propellors, which propelled the ship under water. In these early years of Submersibles, propulsion was almost exclusively human powered, usually by turning a hand crank that worked the propellor. This would also use up oxygen at a high rate of speed.
Ghilayne Andrew grins at Viv.
Hotspur Otoole: I will note, that early submarines used OARS, rowing UNDER WATER.. which is an interesting visual.
Bookworm Hienrichs goggles.
Krystine Qinan wonders how they sealed the openings for the oars
Serafina Puchkina: wow
Hotspur Otoole: lastly, a few challenges.. Oxygen.. or the lack thereof.
Nabila Nadir: sculling?
Hawc Decosta: Row, Glub?
Hotspur Otoole: Propulsion systems were designed to turn propellors, which propelled the ship under water. In these early years of Submersibles, propulsion was almost exclusively human powered, usually by turning a hand crank that worked the propellor. This would also use up oxygen at a high rate of speed.
TotalLunar Eclipse: breathe into paper bag?
Hotspur Otoole: oops
Viv Trafalgar laughs
Hotspur Otoole: DANGER! DANGER!
Hotspur Otoole: Hypercapnia, also known as hypercarbia, is a condition where there is too much carbon dioxide (CO2) in the blood. Carbon dioxide is a gaseous product of the body’s metabolism and is normally expelled through the lungs. This condition is also known as carbon dioxide posioning. Hypercapnia was a very signficant to all early submarine development. Contrary to some popular perceptions, the designers of submersibles were very aware of the dangers of carbon dioxide buildup.
Nabila Nadir: no prob
JB Hancroft: And did they have bilge pumps?
Hotspur Otoole: Considering the fate of the Hunley, likely not.
Hotspur Otoole: Okay, with a few terms and challenges defined, let’s proceed with a short (very short) discussion of events leading up to the American Civil War.
Hotspur Otoole: since my slide show wishes to advance, mysteriously.
Hotspur Otoole: The March of Failurrrre!
Nabila Nadir: 😦
Pepys Ponnier: Yay! Fail!
Jasper Kiergarten: hee
Ghilayne Andrew: “Fail. Fail again. Fail better.”
JB Hancroft: My apologies, Hotspur, but I need to leave.
Hotspur Otoole: In 1623, Dutchman CORNELIUS DREBBEL, hired in 1603 as “court inventor” for James I of England, built what seems to have been the first working submarine. According to accounts, some of which may have been written by people who actually saw the submarine, it was a decked-over rowboat, propelled by twelve oarsmen, which made a submerged journey down the Thames River at a depth of about fifteen feet. There are no credible illustrations of Drebbel’s boat, and no credible explanations of how it worked. Best guess: the boat was designed to have almost-neutral buoyancy, floating just awash, with a downward-sloping foredeck to act as a sort of diving plane. The boat would be driven under the surface by forward momentum . . . just as are most modern submarines. When the rowers stopped rowing, the boat would slowly rise. Reports that Drebbel’s patron, James I, witnessed a demonstration, may be true. Reports that James I took an underwater ride are most unlikely.
Hotspur Otoole: np, JB. 😀
Hotspur Otoole: Documentation of these early works is sketchy at best… and much of this may be anecdotal.
Hotspur Otoole: in 1653 the 72-foot-long “Rotterdam Boat,” designed by a Frenchman (named DE SON) was probably the first underwater vessel specifically built (by the Belgians) to attack an enemy (the English Navy). This almost submarine – really a semi-submersible ram – was supposed to sneak up unobserved and punch a hole in an enemy ship. The designer boasted that it could cross the English Channel and back in a day, and sink a hundred ships along the way.
Hotspur Otoole: Voila! The Rotterdam boat!
Breezy Carver: ☆smiles ☆
Nabila Nadir: 😀
Leonardo Serrao: Rotterdam..thats where I live {grins}
Breezy Carver: smiles
Viv Trafalgar: o.O
Hotspur Otoole: There are some eyewitness accounts as to the success of this craft, so I think it probably did get built and wasn’t some pipe dream, as many of these early craft seem to be.
Hotspur Otoole: Lurching foward into the 18th Century on our whirlwind tour.
Nabila Nadir holds on to hat
Hotspur Otoole: in 1773 wagon-maker J. DAY, another Englishman, built a small submarine with detachable ballast stones, hung around the outside with ring bolts, which could be released from inside. This worked quite well in shallow water. Encouraged by a professional gambler, he built a bigger boat: they would take bets on how long he could remain underwater, further out in the deep-water harbor. Surrounded by ships filled with bettors, they hung some stones; the boat wallowed awash, but would not go under. They hung some more stones. The boat sank – like a rock – and would have collapsed long before the ballast could be released.
Viv Trafalgar steams ahead
Langain Aya: back
Hotspur Otoole: And of course… many of us who took US history recognize this craft here.
Ghilayne Andrew: Mr. Day perished, presumably?
Jedburgh30 Dagger: turtle turtle
Nocti Heliosense: The very textbook picture, yest.
Nocti Heliosense: yes
Hotspur Otoole: The history books did not say.
Remington Pinion: just a paddle boat with a big corkscrew
Hotspur Otoole: This is Bushnell’s Turtle, which has quite wrongly been called “the first submarine”
Hotspur Otoole: I well recall a nun pointing this out to me in grade school.
Nabila Nadir: lol
Hotspur Otoole: As I said in the introduction, this isn’t a submersible.
Hotspur Otoole: it can’t go underwater.
Hotspur Otoole: but it did achieve a level of buoyancy, and was semi-submersible for its attack.
Hotspur Otoole: in 1776 Yale graduate DAVID BUSHNELL (‘75) built the first submarine to actually make an attack on an enemy warship. Dubbed the “Turtle” because it resembled a sea-turtle floating vertically in the water, it was operated by Sergeant Ezra Lee. The scheme: be towed into the vicinity of the target; open a foot-operated valve to let in enough water to sink, close the valve; move in under the enemy by cranking the two propellers – one for forward and one for vertical movement – turned by foot treadle “like a spinning wheel;” drill into the hull to attach a 150-pound keg of gunpowder with a clockwork detonator; crank to get away; operate a foot-pump to get the water out of the hull and thus re-surface. In early-morning darkness on September 7, 1776, “Turtle” made an attack on a British ship in New York harbor, probably HMS Eagle. The drill may have hit an iron strap – it would not penetrate the hull. (Contrary to most reports, the Eagle of 1776 had not been fitted with a copper-sheathed bottom.) Lee
Viv Trafalgar is loving the schematics
Elleon Bergamasco NODS
Hotspur Otoole: (even google calls this a submarine)
Hotspur Otoole: but that’s my beef, and largely a technicality.
Langain Aya is cursing her computer for not rezzing slides fast enough
Ghilayne Andrew is loving the narrative.
Hotspur Otoole: Now, leading up to the Civil war there were about a half dozen attempts here and there to create an effective submersible as a weapon of war.
Hotspur Otoole: What do you think, successes or failures?
Pepys Ponnier: Fail! YAY!
Nabila Nadir: 😦
Petunia Schism: FAIL
Rhianon Jameson: Or as the Twitter folks would say, #fail
Tensai Hilra: Failboats:)
Ghilayne Andrew: Opportunities to learn from one’s mistakes.
Nabila Nadir: there you go
Penelope Strathearn: *grin*
Nocti Heliosense: Opportunities in abundance.
Hotspur Otoole: WRONG!
Jedburgh30 Dagger: making room for promotion
Hotspur Otoole: ha ha ha
Pepys Ponnier: Unless they’re fatal 😦
Hotspur Otoole: in 1797, ROBERT FULTON, a marginal American artist but increasingly successful inventor living in Paris, offered to build a submarine to be used against France’s British enemy: “a Mechanical Nautlius. A Machine which flatters me with much hope of being Able to Annihilate their Navy.” He would build and operate the machine at his own expense, and would expect payment for each British ship destroyed. He predicted that, “Should some vessels of war be destroyed by means so novel, so hidden and so incalculable the confidence of the seamen will vanish and the fleet rendered useless from the moment of the first terror.” In 1800, after protracted delays and several changes in government, Fulton was encouraged enough to build the submarine he called “Nautilus.” He made a number of successful dives, to depths of 25 feet and for times as long as six hours (ventilation provided by a tube to the surface). “Nautilus” was essentially an elongated “Turtle” with a larger propellor and mast and sail for use on the surface.
Hotspur Otoole: “Nautilus” was essentially an elongated “Turtle” with a larger propellor and mast and sail for use on the surface. In trials, “Nautilus” achieved a maximum sustained underwater speed of four knots. Fulton (given the rank of rear admiral) made several attempts to attack English ships – which saw him coming and moved out of the way. Relationships with the French government deteriorated; a new Minister of Marine is reported to have said, “Go, sir. Your invention is fine for the Algerians or corsairs, but be advised that France has not yet abandoned the Ocean.” Fulton broke up “Nautilus” and sold the metal for scrap. He proposed – but, most reports to the contrary, never built – an improved version. The name “Nautilus” was immortalized by Jules Verne in his 1870 novel, “20,000 Leagues under the Sea” and was given to several U. S. Navy boats – including the world’s first nuclear-powered submarine, the 1954 USS Nautilus.
Nabila Nadir: rface
Nabila Nadir: wow
Hotspur Otoole: Voila! The first nautilus!
Hotspur Otoole: And, get this.. it worked!
Viv Trafalgar: oh sweet
Kat Montpark: Beautiful design.
Ghilayne Andrew: and elegant-looking
Hotspur Otoole: But really, it’s another failure.. a failure of vision on the part of Governments to utilize a beautiful and elegant design.
Kat Montpark: Imagine that fin coming at your boat through th’ water, like a mechanical shark.
Nocti Heliosense: 🙂
Ghilayne Andrew: That would encourage me to move out of its way, too.
Hotspur Otoole: they dropped the sail vain to go into combat.. as you can see in the cutaway, this was handcranked on the attack.
Pepys Ponnier: Or imagine at night, and NO fin
Hotspur Otoole: Fulton’s ship was a big advance in many areas, particularly propulsion, steering and dive planes.
Hotspur Otoole: Grumble, this thing keeps advancing on me.
Wiggy Undertone: oops, sorry. didn’t mean to change the slide.
Hotspur Otoole: The next success on our tour is one Monsieur Villeroi. Brutus de Villeroi…
Viv Trafalgar: Wiggy!
Viv Trafalgar: laughs
Wiggy Undertone: *ducks*
Hotspur Otoole: Stern looking chap, for a Frenchman.
Remington Pinion: Admires Wiggy’s willingness to confess!
Ghilayne Andrew laughs merrily! “He has Napoleon’s expression.”
Hotspur Otoole: De Villeroi is one of those great unsung geniuses of submarine design.
Viv Trafalgar: if you are having trouble seeing the slides, we will post them at aethersalon.blogspot.com this week, with the transcript. If you feel the need to caress the slides (Wiggy Undertone, looking at you) please wait until that time.
Hotspur Otoole: In the 1830s… DECADES before the civil war, Mr. de Villeroi created a true submersible that hits on every element of our definition—
Hotspur Otoole: In 1833, Brutus de Villeroi completed a small submarine, possibly named “Nautilus” in reference to the 1800 submarine created by Robert Fulton. The submarine was 10′ 6″ long by 27″ high by 25″ wide and displaced about six tons when submerged. She was equipped with eight dead-lights on top to provide interior light, and a top hatch with a retractable conning tower for surface navigation. For propulsion, she had three sets of duck-foot paddles and a large rudder. She was also equipped with a hatches with leather seals in order to make some manipulations outside of hull, a small ballast system with a lever and piston, and a 50 lb anchor. The ship had a complement of three men. This submarine was demonstrated at Fromentine, Noirmoutier, near Nantes, France, in 1833, and later to representatives of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1837. De Villeroi tried several times to sell his submarine designs to the French Navy (1832, 1855 and 1863), but he was apparently turned down every time.
Hotspur Otoole: Personally, I like the duck foot propulsion. that must have been a sight to see.
Hotspur Otoole: I tried to find a decent drawing of this craft, this is all I could find.
Hotspur Otoole: if it manages to rez.
Hotspur Otoole: or not.
Viv Trafalgar: I have it
Hotspur Otoole: okay.
CeAire Decosta: /they would have to be small men. Packed like sardines!
Wolf Copperfield: eck… not good for a claustrophibic
Hotspur Otoole: They WERE small men back in the day, if surviving uniforms are any indication.
Ghilayne Andrew: Looking at it from the top down, it looks like a waterbug.
Pepys Ponnier: It looks like a flea.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: imagine if they’d had beans for breakfast!
Hotspur Otoole: It was called “waterbug” Miss Andrew!
Hotspur Otoole: 😀
Viv Trafalgar: lol
Ghilayne Andrew laughs!
Penelope Strathearn: Thanks for sharing, Bob
Wolf Copperfield giggles
Krystine Qinan imagines the stench would have been awful
Hotspur Otoole: So, this brings us to what I hoped to be the focus of the lecture… 😀
CeAire Decosta: New means of propulsion?
Pepys Ponnier: Beans?
Wolf Copperfield: *sigh*
CeAire Decosta: (sorry!)
Hotspur Otoole: I consider the Civil War to be the great milestone that changed the development of submersibles forever.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: beans, beans good for the heart the more you eat, the more you wish you weren’t in a submersible
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: 😀
Hotspur Otoole: MANY technologies were tried, including air purification systems, new improved torque propellors, much more advanced “torpedos”
Kat Montpark spits out her tea laughing.
Huns Valen: how ribald
Langain Aya laughs
Hotspur Otoole: We’ll start with .. what else.. another failure!
Penelope Strathearn: *surreptitiously throws a Mexican Jumping Bean at Bob’s head*
Viv Trafalgar goes to look for the net for catching bob
Elleon Bergamasco ducks
Wolf Copperfield: oh my
Rhianon Jameson: Looks like a coffin.
Nabila Nadir: wow
Wolf Copperfield: well
Nocti Heliosense: A mystery sub!
Rhianon Jameson: (And probably was.)
Kat Montpark: Ooh!
Nocti Heliosense: I’ve not heard of this.
Hotspur Otoole: The history of this machine (sometimes called the Bayou St. John Confederate Sub) seems is simply this, in the early part of Admiral Farragut’s operations here (New Orleans fell on May 1, 1862) the gunboat New London was a perfect terror to the Rebels in the lake (Lake Pontchartrain), so it occurred to them if they could get a machine that would move underwater they could succeed in securing a torpedo to the bottom of the ship, move off, touch the wires, and thus terminate their existence. They finally got the thing done, made a good job of it, got it overboard, and put two men in it; they were smothered to death.” The Louisiana State Museum submarine once was thought to have an identity. It was believed to be the Pioneer, a vessel built in New Orleans by a group led by Horace Hunley, a wealthy lawyer and customs agent. Recent findings in the National Archives, however, have proven otherwise.
Wolf Copperfield: I guess by the sounds of failure, coffin is appropriate
Hotspur Otoole: (sorry, some of the above got jumbled. it was from a Union naval man’s diary)
Viv Trafalgar: no worries Commodore, we follow you
Nabila Nadir: creepy
Hotspur Otoole: In any event, nobody really knows for sure who built this, but recent studies indicate it might have been the crew of naval engineers that build the CSS Mannassas.
Pepys Ponnier: No kiddin.
Ghilayne Andrew: Surprising they didn’t scratch their names inside it somewhere, as soldiers often do leave their names on things.
Hotspur Otoole: yes, a recent (’06) paper I found indicates similarities between the ironwork on this thing and the Mannassas.
Wolf Copperfield recalls the Kilroy was here epidemic
Hotspur Otoole: We’ll likely never know who built this, or how it would have fared against the Union Blockade. Another valiant failure in the history of submersibles!
Nabila Nadir: it’s so organic-looking
Ceejay Writer: Valiant failure… I like that wording.
Nabila Nadir: like a leather flask
Wolf Copperfield: whoa!
Hotspur Otoole: Onward! To one of my naval engineering heroes, Horace Hunley
Hotspur Otoole: You all know of the history of the CSS Hunley from Mr. Kiergarten.
Hotspur Otoole: But that was simply the last boat he made.
Nabila Nadir: ahh
Hotspur Otoole: James R. McClintock, with Horace Lawson Hunley and Baxter Watson, built the submarine Pioneer at New Orleans in 1861 to defend the city against Federal forces. The three men later constructed two submarines at Mobile, Alabama, the second of which was named H.L. Hunley. the First of these was the Pioneer (pictures) The Pioneer, built in New Orleans in 1862, was a Confederate privateer submarine with a three man crew. It was built in 1861-62 by John K. Scott, Robert F. Barrow, Baxter Watson & James R. McClintock. It was commissioned by the Confederate government to cruise the high seas and rivers and destroy any vessels opposed to the Southern War for Independence. Its physical description is here quoted from its official Confederate Letter of Marque: “Said vessel was built in New Orleans in the year 1862; is a propeller; is 34 feet in length; is 4 feet breadth; is 4 feet deep. She measures about 4 tons; has round, conical ends and is painted black.”
Viv Trafalgar: 4 feet wide?
Kat Montpark: Cozy.
Viv Trafalgar: manned by how many?
Hotspur Otoole: This is the CSS Pioneer. She was built to take on the Union fleet at New Orleans.
Beq Janus: Tenks
Kat Montpark: Two skinny men or one fat one that didn’t turn around much.
Viv Trafalgar: ::coughs::
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Russian tankers
Hotspur Otoole: Across the river at Leeds foundry, steam gauge manufacturers James McClintock and Baxter Watson constructed a submarine to use against Union gunboats patrolling Lake Pontchartrain. They would eventually partner with Horace L. Hunley, a wealthy lawyer and customs agent, to build a submarine with a menacing, streamlined appearance. After the war, McClintock described the vessel he and his partners christened the Pioneer. “She was made of iron 1 inch thick. The boat was of a cigar shape 30 feet long and 4 feet in diameter. This boat demonstrated to us that we could construct a boat that would move at will in any direction desired, and at any distance from the surface. As we were unable to see objects passing under the water, the boat was steered by compass”.
Hotspur Otoole: (as we’ll get into, Hunley wasn’t around to write memoirs)
Hotspur Otoole: I like this particular hull shape– it’s quite futuristic looking.
Hotspur Otoole: note the common sense rudder and dive planes.
Wolf Copperfield: very much so
Nocti Heliosense: More like a modern submarine.
Pepys Ponnier: Just so.
Hotspur Otoole: At this stage, though, propellors were somewhat rudimentary, still rather flat..
Hotspur Otoole: In March of 1862, the Pioneer’s owners were granted a letter of marque by the Confederate government. A month later, New Orleans fell to the West Gulf Blockading Squadron commanded by David Glasgow Farragut. In the ensuing turmoil, the Pioneer was scuttled in the New Basin Canal.
Hotspur Otoole: Another valiant Failure!
Pepys Ponnier: /cries
Nabila Nadir: Wait…steered by “compass” in an iron boat?
Jedburgh30 Dagger: sounds like a job for NUMA
Hotspur Otoole: I warned the audience up front, we’re going to be talking about a lot of failure tonight.
Wolf Copperfield: actually…now wait, I won’t comment hehe
Pepys Ponnier: We can handle a lot of fail!
Hotspur Otoole: Now on to the main event..
Ceejay Writer: We are Babbagers. We can handle such talk!
Hotspur Otoole: This is the CSS Hunley.
Pepys Ponnier: YAY!
Kat Montpark: If they steered by compass in an iron boat, did they always think they were going th’ right way, no matter which way they turned?
Kat Montpark: The Hunley!
Hotspur Otoole: Named for the lead inventor..
Viv Trafalgar: huzzah!
Hotspur Otoole: Argh STOP touching the screen please.
Wiggy Undertone: Don’t look at me…
Ghilayne Andrew: not me!
Pepys Ponnier: < Narrows eyes at Bob…
Hotspur Otoole: Okay, as you can see, the Hunley developed on the Pioneer’s design.
Hotspur Otoole: See the Dive planes on the side?
Nabila Nadir: fancy
Hotspur Otoole: The protected propellor and rudder?
Hotspur Otoole: From above, she looks like a swimming penguin to me. 😀
Hawc Decosta: lol
TotalLunar Eclipse: ahehe
CeAire Decosta smells barbecue through an open window…….!
Hotspur Otoole: The Hunley’s main weapon was the SPAR TORPEDO (really a tripwire mine)
Nabila Nadir: plant it then back away and yank the cord?
Hotspur Otoole: exactly, Nab.
Wolf Copperfield: pretty good idea
CeAire Decosta: Just make sure the cord was long enough!
Hotspur Otoole: But did you know the original intention was to float the mine above the submersible like a fishing bob?
Pepys Ponnier: how did they stick it to the hull?
Wolf Copperfield: but how far away is far enough?
Nabila Nadir: scary
Hotspur Otoole: Well, the original intention didn’t work so well..
Hotspur Otoole: so they put it on a big stick, and rammed it into the hull.
Hawc Decosta: I think blast effects would have got them.
Hotspur Otoole: In fact, it did, Hawc
Pepys Ponnier: 0.o
Aeolus Cleanslate: “stick” being a technical term
Nabila Nadir: barbed point on the torpedo?
Jasper Kiergarten: points to my model
Hotspur Otoole: exactly.
Wolf Copperfield: well, wouldn’t have been to hard, with wooden hulls
Pepys Ponnier: turns to look
Hotspur Otoole: Now, I’m going to publish some notes from this talk with some great Hunley sites that posit some theories about exactly WHAT happened that night.
Hotspur Otoole: I’ll keep it brief.. what is known…
Hotspur Otoole: the Hunley chugged out to encounter the USS Housatanic and did, in fact, hit it with a spar torpedo. The Housatanic sank, going into history as the very first vessel to be sank by a submarine.
Hotspur Otoole: Did the Hunley go down with her? possibly.
Hotspur Otoole: But there are accounts of the ship having given its “Success” signal.. a blue flare.
Nabila Nadir: ahh
Hotspur Otoole: so my theory is: the Hunley was certainly damaged in the attack, and gradually took on water, sinking the vessel.
Hotspur Otoole: Cold water, and the rapid decrease in oxygen, probably did in the crew.
Nabila Nadir: ugh
Hotspur Otoole: We’ll never know, sadly. Not for sure.
Hotspur Otoole: But they were brave men to try it!
Viv Trafalgar shivers.
Ghilayne Andrew: ‘poor fellows
Viv Trafalgar: what a terrible way to die
Nabila Nadir: I guess they found her a lot farther off-shore then they’d expected
CeAire Decosta wonders about the men who are willing to do such things – today’s astronauts and test pilots.
Viv Trafalgar nods at Miss Decosta – exactly
Hotspur Otoole: In a footnote, the Hunley was recovered, as well as the crew, who were recently given a burial with full honors.
Viv Trafalgar: and submariners as well
CeAire Decosta nods to Viv – true
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Thresher
Jasper Kiergarten: Scorpion
Kat Montpark: A glorious life or a glorious death…it’s a bit o’ a toss-up for things like that.l
Hotspur Otoole: I was there when the Monitor’s turret was brought back. I confess, I had tears in my eyes.
Nabila Nadir: wow
Viv Trafalgar: oh wow
Ceejay Writer blinks, impressed.
Hawc Decosta: Has any recent information come from the recovery of the wreckage that disproved old theories?
Wolf Copperfield: what i find interesting about the Hunley, is that they would have had to do this mission in almost pitch black… they couldn’t have placed more than one candle in there to light the thing
Hotspur Otoole: Actually yes.. I have links to them I’ll put up
Hotspur Otoole: Moving on…
Viv Trafalgar: onwards!
Hotspur Otoole: I just wanted to show a good drawing of the CSS DAVID, a semi-submersible… with another spar torpedo based on the Hunley design.
Hotspur Otoole: (there’s a model above).
Viv Trafalgar: it’s beautiful
Nabila Nadir: tidy design
Hotspur Otoole: Now, I would hate not to strike a blow for the Union here tonight, so let me show you a couple of attempts by the other side.
Nabila Nadir: 😀
ZATZAi Asturias: Such a lovely diagram
Penelope Strathearn: If you must (she says with a Southern drawl) 😉
CeAire Decosta: / wonders if the “torpedo shape” was a result of the study of dolphins and whales, or that has been mentioned and she missed it.
Hotspur Otoole: the Union navy was also interested in Submersibles, but they didn’t have the driving strategic problems the CSS did. nor a real sense of mission for what a submersible could possibly DO against the Confederates.
Remington Pinion: looks like a guppy
Hawc Decosta: Huzzah says the off-duty Union Cavalry man!
CeAire Decosta grins!
Hotspur Otoole: Yonder is the “Intelligent Whale” another fine valiant failure, this time on the Union Side.
Wolf Copperfield: looks lke… rey.. silly lag
Hotspur Otoole: Intelligent Whale, an experimental iron-hulled submarine, was built at Newark, New Jersey, to the design of Scovel S. Merriam, who entered into an agreement on 2 November 1863 with Augustus Price and Cornelius S. Bushnell. In April 1864, the American Submarine Company was formed, taking over the interests of Bushnell and Price. Years of litigation, however, followed, while those who built the boat apparently encountered “great difficulty…in getting a crew to man her for her first test in Newark Bay.”
Aquaria Semyorka: NEWARK!
Jedburgh30 Dagger: which exit?
Aquaria Semyorka: (sorry I’m from nearby there 🙂
Kat Montpark: Heh.
Aquaria Semyorka: he he
Penelope Strathearn: *laugh*
Wolf Copperfield: do you blame them?
Viv Trafalgar: can’t imagine why
Hotspur Otoole: Intelligent Whale could be submerged by filling compartments with water, and then expelling the water by pumps and compressed air. It was estimated that the supply of compressed air inside could allow the boat to stay submerged for about 10 hours. Thirteen crewmen could be accommodated, but only six were needed to make her operational, motive power being furnished by a part of the crew cranking, attaining a speed of about four knots.
Aquaria Semyorka: and exit 142 btw, lol
Hotspur Otoole: Thirteen intrepid crewmen.
Jasper Kiergarten: what could go wrong?
TotalLunar Eclipse: indeed
Hotspur Otoole: William Sweeny, a colorful decorated veteran of the Mexican War and Civil War (and who would participate in the Fenian Invasion of Canada later in the year), and two other men, tested the boat in April 1866. They submerged her in 16 feet of water, and Sweeney, clad in a diver’s suit, emerged through a hole in the bottom, placed a charge under a scow, and reentered the submarine. When Intelligent Whale was a safe distance away, Sweeny exploded the charge by a lanyard and a friction primer, blowing the scow to pieces. Ultimately, at the end of the period of litigation, however, a sheriff’s sale disposed of the boat. With the establishment of the title in court, the boat ultimately belonging to an “Abe” Halstead, the submarine was sold on 29 October 1869 to the Navy Department, for the following terms: $12,500 to be paid upon making and signing the agreement, $12,500 upon completion of the successful experiment, and $25,000 for all “secrets and inventions” connected with the craft.
Hotspur Otoole: A trial of Intelligent Whale occurred at the New York Navy Yard, Brooklyn, N.Y., three years later. “After sinking the boat, it was found the opening on top was leaking through defective packing,” reported the Army and Navy Journal of 21 September 1872, “and after remaining under water a short time, the leak was so bad it was found expedient to raise her, but in doing so she caught under the derrick, and signals were sent to those on board [the derrick] to hoist the boat out, which they did. In the meantime, those on terra firma were excited by the fear that some serious mishap would occur to the persons in the torpedo-boat [one of whom was, apparently, Halstead himself], but after having been under the water sometime in the same spot, nor having traveled or accomplished anything, the boat was got out, and found nearly half full of water, her navigators unhurt, but we imagine, considerably frightened…”
Nabila Nadir: wow
Hotspur Otoole: To say the least!
Wiggy Undertone: I’d like to stay longer, but I need to go. Thanks Hotspur!
Nabila Nadir: 4 knots isn’t a bad speed, btw
Aquaria Semyorka: Lovely to see you all and fascinating stuff!!!
Hotspur Otoole: I wanted to wrap up tonight’s talk with what I consider the great WHAT IF of the Union Navy….
Viv Trafalgar: folks before you leave
Aquaria Semyorka: yes, Viv?
Nabila Nadir: ooooh
Viv Trafalgar: and I want to let Mr. O’Toole continue a bit longer
Hotspur Otoole: The USS ALLIGATOR.
Viv Trafalgar: there will be questions
Hotspur Otoole: Remember Brutus De Villeroi?
Wolf Copperfield: ohhh my
Viv Trafalgar: and we have set out the craft boxes
Viv Trafalgar: please take one
Wiggy Undertone: Ok, thanks Viv!
Hotspur Otoole: The Civil War’s first submarine (and the first such vessel accepted into the U.S. Navy), was designed by an immigrant Frenchman eager to help his new country. Brutus de Villeroi had a history of submarine experiments dating back to 1832 in France , where he first demonstrated a functional boat designed for salvage work. While the main role envisioned for Union submarines would be to clear obstructions, the Navy contracted for de Villeroi’s boat for an entirely different reason. Rumors of a powerful Confederate ironclad building upon the remains of the burned out Merrimack had northern sailors rushing to find a means to meet this new threat. Three types of iron-plated vessels were rushed into production ( Galena , New Ironsides, and Monitor); a squadron of civilian-owned transports was hired to ram the enemy ship; and, at the shipyard of Neafie & Levy in Philadelphia , constructors worked feverishly to complete the “submarine propeller” designed by de Villeroi.
Ghilayne Andrew chuckles. “I’m planning on staying as long as he speaks. This is fascinating.”
Viv Trafalgar: I’m planning on letting him talk 🙂
Hotspur Otoole: One of the features that made this vessel so unique was the fact that it employed an air-scrubbing system to remove carbon dioxide from the interior environment of the boat. No other Civil War submarine had such a system. Unfortunately, the expense of the components of this system, the unfamiliarity of Navy officials with its workings, and, quite probably, the fact that neither the shipyard nor the Navy had ever dealt with a self-described “natural genius” before meant construction was delayed long after the threat of the CSS Virginia had been met. Completed in the spring of 1862, the Navy’s new submarine was sent up Hampton Roads in Virginia for its first combat mission: to destroy a railroad bridge over Appomattox Creek and thereby cut a major supply line to Richmond .
Penelope Strathearn: Indeed! ((typist was a Navy Brat))
Hotspur Otoole: how a submarine was supposed to destroy a bridge, they didn’t say.
Nabila Nadir: lol
ZATZAi Asturias: lol
Ceejay Writer: (My dad’s Navy. 😀 He’d be all OVER this, I will point him at the transcript)
Penelope Strathearn: *grin*
Ghilayne Andrew smiles. “I’m sure they would have found a way.”
Hotspur Otoole: Now, the problem with the Alligator was that the Union WANTED a submersible.. but didn’t know what to DO with it… so many hare brained schemes were developed…
Krystine Qinan: air scrubbing system?
Hotspur Otoole: Yes, indeed, Krys..
Hotspur Otoole: Berylyium absorbs Carbon Dioxide..
Nabila Nadir: scrubs the waste gasses…..exactly
Wolf Copperfield: interesting… we use those in modern day vessels, and they had the idea in the civil war?
Krystine Qinan: amazing
Hotspur Otoole: Villeroi was planning on using a Berilyium “air scrubber” on the “Gator.
Hotspur Otoole: Exactly.
Krystine Qinan: he really was a genius
Pepys Ponnier: How did the scubber work?
Beq Janus: modern rebreather technology is not that far removed, chemistry doesn’t change much I guess:-)
Hotspur Otoole: Let me point out these men knew about this stuff.. they knew that oxygen depleted in a closed space.
Hotspur Otoole: Anyway, Sadly, the Gator sank while under tow to the Carolinas…
Nabila Nadir: dang it
Pepys Ponnier: Nooo!
Hotspur Otoole: Never to have seen action, never to have lived up to her promise.
Jedburgh30 Dagger: go Hatteras
Wolf Copperfield: awww
Hotspur Otoole: I’m sorry I’ve gone so long… it’s a fun topic for me as well. 😀
Jedburgh30 Dagger: have they made any progress looking for her H?
Hotspur Otoole: Oddly enough, in the midst of the war, work was commencing on another submarine design, LE PLONGEUR in France, which would encompass many revolutionary technologies as well as incorporating lessons learned from those who have gone before– compressed air propulsion powering a reciprocating engine, for one thing, an advanced propellor shape that provide efficient torque for speedy movement, and more modern dive planes. Our Submarining forefathers had to be a little mad to do what they did, but each failure in this story contributing a little bit to the submarines we know today.
Viv Trafalgar: this is a brilliant and informative presentation Hotspur. NO sorry.
Nabila Nadir: amazing
Serafina Puchkina: Very interesting
Hotspur Otoole: And that concludes my discussions.
Huns Valen: this has been a fascinating and well thought out presentation
Nabila Nadir: “mad” is right!
CeAire Decosta: Outstanding!
Viv Trafalgar: Cheers!
Viv Trafalgar: awesome
ZATZAi Asturias: yes cheers hotspur
TotalLunar Eclipse: Hoooo!
CeAire Decosta: .-‘`’-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-‘`’-.
CeAire Decosta: Bravo!
Kat Montpark: `*.¸.*´ APPLAUSE `*.¸.*´APPLAUSE `*.¸.*´
CeAire Decosta: :*’´ `*. HoOoOoO!¸.*´`’*:
Serafina Puchkina applauds
Wolf Copperfield claps
Ceejay Writer wonders if all our heads grew bigger to contain all this amazing new knowledge.
Penelope Strathearn: *claps*
Hotspur Otoole: I shall as best I can, answer questions.
Hawc Decosta: .-‘`’-. APPLAUSE APPLAUSE .-‘`’-.
Hawc Decosta: Bravo!
Pepys Ponnier: Thnak you!
Hawc Decosta: Hoooo!
Viv Trafalgar: we will have questions in one minute
Jasper Kiergarten: fascinating lecture sir
Hawc Decosta: *beats chest*
Jasper Kiergarten: very
Viv Trafalgar: for those of you who have to leave
Ghilayne Andrew: It has been a delightful discussion, sir. I was wondering if the Ictino might have had any influence?
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: BRAVO!
Tensai Hilra: TY Hotspur! Wonderful presentation
Viv Trafalgar: I have a few announcements first
Pepys Ponnier: *Cheers*
Viv Trafalgar: Thank you once again for joining us for the monthly Aether Salon! We normally meet in Palisades, New Babbage, on the third Sunday of each month at 2pm and we hope to see you there next month for Engines!
Viv Trafalgar: Please join the group (signs at the back near the stairs) for more information and for group notices.
Ghilayne Andrew cheers and applauds Commodore O’Toole.
Viv Trafalgar: I’ve put the craft boxes out and ask you to Please! Be! Careful! with the contents. they are very … experimental. Thanks to Beq Janus and Dreddpirate Bob for assisting me with them.
Nocti Heliosense: Thank you for the excellent presentations, Mr. Hotspur, and Mr. Kiergarten.
Viv Trafalgar: As always, we donate the entire contents of the speakers fund to the speakers. should you wish to support the salon itself, the posters in the back are multitask. Today we are proud to split the contents of the jar — with our thanks to you, wonderful audience and community members –
Ceejay Writer: Experimental crafts! What could possibly go wrong?
Hotspur Otoole: Please accept my portion as a donation, Viv.
Viv Trafalgar: as well as an additional $4,000 L from Lunar Eclipse
TotalLunar Eclipse: Taken from my wife’s purse.
Viv Trafalgar: Thank you hotspur
Viv Trafalgar: hah
Ghilayne Andrew chuckles.
Kat Montpark laughs.
Tensai Hilra: 😛 got that from you when you were asleep so HA!
Jasper Kiergarten: grins
Viv Trafalgar: Ok – questions – and lauds – and cheers
Viv Trafalgar: go
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Yay!
Hotspur Otoole: Phew…
Viv Trafalgar: please direct your questions to either awesome speaker
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: there’s going to be a bloody bunch of submersibles being built now i bet ya
Viv Trafalgar: but make sure they know who’s asking what
Viv Trafalgar: and to jasper and hotspur
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Hey Hotspur, have they made any progress in searching for the Alligator?
Viv Trafalgar: thank you so very much
Jasper Kiergarten: with luck, bob
Wolf Copperfield finishes devouring the cheese cake
Viv Trafalgar: from both Serafina and myself
Ghilayne Andrew nods at Viv. “Directed to the Commodore… did the Ictino have any influence on development, or was it too obscure being Spaniard?”
Viv Trafalgar: great first question Miss Andrew
Beq Janus: it solved the oxygen problem Ghilayne
Hotspur Otoole: Yes, in fact, I will post a link to the MYSTERY OF THE ALLIGATOR website when I get my notes together.
Viv Trafalgar thinks Hotspur should make an inworld book
Hotspur Otoole: Second, the ICTINO, sorry for my American bias on this, but most of my books where geared towards the American Civil War.
Hotspur Otoole: So I don’t have the answer to that.
Hotspur Otoole: 😀
Beq Janus: the first anaerobic engine
Jedburgh30 Dagger: thanks!
Ghilayne Andrew nods to Beq. “And double-hulled. But was there much communication between designers, I suppose is my question.”
Hotspur Otoole: I have the start of a bibilography for you all, one sec and let me post this.
Nabila Nadir: Excellent presentation, gentlemen!
Viv Trafalgar: other questions?
Viv Trafalgar peers around the still-full room
Nabila Nadir: Mr. P was very impressed, I must say, and he’s a tough audience.
Wolf Copperfield: lovely presentation
Ceejay Writer sips my giganting absinthe wondering if I’ll ever finish it.
Pondus Turbo: hey
Pondus Turbo: whats going on here?
Pondus Turbo: jeu
Serafina Puchkina: Miss Decosta had a question awhile back for Mr. Kiergarten
Ceejay Writer: The conclusion of a talk about submersibles, Mister Turbo!
Hotspur Otoole: many of the subjects we’ve been discussing tonight can be found here http://sites.google.com/site/thehotspurfiles/lecture-notes-submersibles
Viv Trafalgar: ah yes –
Serafina Puchkina: I don’t know if she’s still here
Viv Trafalgar: Sera can you pull that up?
ZATZAi Asturias: Thats a like from Hunt for Red October
Serafina Puchkina: But here is the question:
CeAire Decosta: For scale purposes are there any plans to include a representation of a sailor at their work?
Langain Aya: thank’s mr. o’toole ^^
Hotspur Otoole: I strongly recommend Silverstone’s book.
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Hey Jasper, are you going to build any other subs in the near future?
Jasper Kiergarten: I believe I got to most of the ones directed to me
Hotspur Otoole: As J. can attest, it’s the holy grail of the 19th century.
Jasper Kiergarten: I might, Jed
CeAire Decosta forgot she asked!
Jasper Kiergarten: am open to ideas, if you have any
Serafina Puchkina: Sorry, Miss Decosta, I couldn’t see you!
Hotspur Otoole: I want to see Fulton’s Nautilus get made in Second Life. :-F
CeAire Decosta: (I did crash once)
Tensai Hilra: Hotspur, have you seen the recent articles on the semi-submersibles being used out of Columbia?
Viv Trafalgar: oh cool idea Hotspur
Pepys Ponnier: Thank you gentlemen very much for a wonderful talk, must retire to my ship, night to all.
Jasper Kiergarten: night pep
Ghilayne Andrew: Good night, Mr. Ponnier.
CeAire Decosta: G’night!
Ceejay Writer: Goodnight Mister Ponnier!
Jasper Kiergarten: he always logs before I finish typing “night”..
Viv Trafalgar: there’s a big Chatlag
Hotspur Otoole: Do you mean the David or the Squib, tensai?
Wolf Copperfield: everyone does that!
Jasper Kiergarten: even when there’s on ly three or four 🙂
Langain Aya: I can never finish typing goodnight :p
Tensai Hilra: actually quite a bit of modern stuff with drug runners using semi-subs to get stuff into the country
Hotspur Otoole: Oh, interesting! What is old is new again!
Jasper Kiergarten: indeed
Hotspur Otoole laughs.. nope, I hadn’t seen that…
Tensai Hilra: it’s become quite a problem, and they are working out converting entire yahts into semi-subs
Jasper Kiergarten: H, didn’t they find a strange hole in the Hunley?
Tensai Hilra: even exhaust cooling systems so it doesn’t come up on IR
CeAire Decosta: That’s a waste of yachts!
Tensai Hilra: takes like 2 million to convert one, but the payoff is 20+ million in a haul
Jasper Kiergarten: all hijacked to begin with, I’m sure
CeAire Decosta: Who figured out what they needed to scrub the air and make it breathable again?
Nabila Nadir: oh, many yachts disappear every year in the Caribbean
Hotspur Otoole: Yes, Hawc, I read about that on the U.S. Navy history site.. they aren’t sure what could have made that.. not for certain.
Nabila Nadir: and environs
Viv Trafalgar: that was a brilliant discovery
Hotspur Otoole: CeAire the chemical Beryilium absorbs CO2.
CeAire Decosta: Right – but who figured that out?!!
Hotspur Otoole: De Villeroi came up with a primitive “Air Scrubber” design based on this.
CeAire Decosta: It didn’t leap up and say “i can do it!!”
Hotspur Otoole: Hard to say, really.
Tensai Hilra: I know your probably buried in IM’s hotspur, but I sent you some links to the submersibles reports
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: i’m going to have to run shortly but wanted to say you were both absolutely fascinating. LOVE the build Jasper! very informative both! thank ya!
Hotspur Otoole: I mean, what intrepid explorer looked at a toad and said.. “Wow, I bet I could get really high if I licked that”
Viv Trafalgar: This was an incredibly well researched and well presented salon, you two
Viv Trafalgar: you should take the show on the road
Kat Montpark laughs.
Hotspur Otoole: Got ’em Tensai, thanks.
Viv Trafalgar: HAH
CeAire Decosta: LOL!
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: would ya do it again if I was to video it?
Penelope Strathearn: And to Bob’s relief, undercrackers weren’t even mentioned
Tensai Hilra: *smiles* awesome
Viv Trafalgar: hah
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: aye! no more girly nonsense!
Ceejay Writer: Bob didn’t …. destroy anything, did he?
Nabila Nadir: We could definitely do a repeat of this talk on another day, in another location.
Viv Trafalgar: shshs Ceejay
Ceejay Writer: No, I’m thinking if he’s been GOOD, I’lll make my next truffle design his namesake.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: O.O
Hotspur Otoole: I would love to put it together in a more coherent less rushed fashion, perhaps all on one website. 😀
Wolf Copperfield: Bob truffles?
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: can it have poison in?
Kat Montpark: That would be about what ye would expect, for a Bob truffle.
Ceejay Writer: Yup. and nope, Bob, I have the recipe all ready.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: awww
CeAire Decosta: (And break the text just a little bit with the long paragraphs!!)
Ceejay Writer: The Sea Breeze IS available now at my sweet shoppe.
Viv Trafalgar: hah
Hawc Decosta: Here a submersible being developed in Florida now! http://www.lakecityreporter.com/articles/2008/02/26/news/doc47c39aec4fcd8822827644.txt
Hotspur Otoole: Sorry bout that… 😀 I like to quote from sources.. 😀
Viv Trafalgar: o.O
Ceejay Writer: Hotspur, having this all preserved for reference will be VERY good.
Langain Aya: well, i have to head out, goodnight all, this was really interesting ^^
Serafina Puchkina is busy working on the transcript as you all talk. I am on my 3rd crayon
Bookworm Hienrichs laughs.
Hotspur Otoole laughs
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: Ya have to make the Hunley so you can have multiple folk cranking the thing, Jasper
Penelope Strathearn: *giggle*
Serafina Puchkina: Don’t forget to get your craft, ladies and gents
CeAire Decosta: TY Serafina!! (And hands her a pencil sharpener!)
Hawc Decosta: Thanks Serafina!
Jasper Kiergarten: heh
Serafina Puchkina: Thanks, CeAire!
Jasper Kiergarten: yes
Jasper Kiergarten: bob
Jasper Kiergarten: actually
Viv Trafalgar: Thank you all!
Ceejay Writer: Go go Sera!
Jasper Kiergarten: I have thought to add AOs for each position
Ceejay Writer: I plan to try out my craft this very evening.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: excellent!
Ghilayne Andrew: Thank you, Sera and Viv.
Jasper Kiergarten: so that folks could jump in and take up the crew positions
Jasper Kiergarten: that sort of relates to the question that was posed to me earlier
Ghilayne Andrew: That would make it a true museum piece, Jasper.
Ceejay Writer: In fact…. I have 468 shiny new prims acquired tonight that are calling to me…….
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: aye
Jasper Kiergarten: about having a crewmember inside
Viv Trafalgar: YW Ghilayne
Ceejay Writer: and I believe I shall go answer them. Thank you for an amazing salon!
Jasper Kiergarten: bye CJ
Viv Trafalgar: Bye Ceejay
Kat Montpark: G’bye!
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: good riddance CeeJat
Ghilayne Andrew smiles at Ceejay. “Goodnight, Ceejay.”
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: *ceejay
Wolf Copperfield: ohh my laggy laggy laggy
Hotspur Otoole: I have a promise to keep involving taking a lady out for stir fry. If you’ll excuse me, everyone. 😀
Ceejay Writer: G’night baloney shoes, and Layne too!
Viv Trafalgar: Thank you Hotspur
Petunia Schism: Thank you Hotspur!
Bookworm Hienrichs: I’m heading out too. I’ll try to get my pics up on the next couple of days, Viv!
Viv Trafalgar: Thank you Jasper!
Viv Trafalgar: And thank you Zat!
Jasper Kiergarten: good night Hotspur
Kat Montpark: Thank ye for th’ talk, Hotspur!
Serafina Puchkina: Thank you Hotspur and Jasper!
Viv Trafalgar: great Book – I’ll look for them
Petunia Schism: And thanks Viv and Sera!
Jasper Kiergarten: great lecture!
Penelope Strathearn: Thank you
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: ZATZAi? you were talking about sub races. That’s still a plan?
Hawc Decosta: Thanks Hotspur and Jasper, this has been great!
ZATZAi Asturias: Yes, we had them a while ago but they never caught on back then
CeAire Decosta: Thank you both – enjoy your dinners!
ZATZAi Asturias: Should try again
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: aye thanks ladies! Thanks gents! great evening
Jasper Kiergarten: yw Hawc
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: i reckon they might now 😀
ZATZAi Asturias: If you go out to the dock.. there is a sub hanging from a crane, sit in it and it will give you the free sub we use for racing
TotalLunar Eclipse: Thank you for the excellent presentation, fair winds folks.
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: oooooo
Serafina Puchkina: Thank you for coming
Viv Trafalgar: don’t forget your crafts folks
Viv Trafalgar: and be CAREFUL
ZATZAi Asturias: hehe
Kat Montpark: What could possible go wrong?!
Kat Montpark: *possibly
Ghilayne Andrew chuckles at Viv. “Goodnight, all. May everyone have a grand rest of their weekend.”
Serafina Puchkina: Aw, come on! I was hoping to see at least one person wearing it walk into the drink
Jasper Kiergarten: famous last words
ZATZAi Asturias: I must run myself, ciao all
Jasper Kiergarten: bye Zat
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: ciao ZATZAi!
Petunia Schism: I need to run as well. Ciao, everyone!
Dreddpiratebob Streeter: later all! Time for me to bail and sleep before bloody work
Wolf Copperfield: bye!
Greg Merryman: well done, sorry I missed most of it. Have a nice evening!
Jasper Kiergarten: bye Greg
Jasper Kiergarten: good to see you, even late 🙂
Jasper Kiergarten: Cleanslate is looking professional as ever :p
Serafina Puchkina chuckles
Wolf Copperfield: does Cleanslate ever not look professional?
Osric Worbridge: Must have dozed off
Serafina Puchkina: His Babbage office was blown up last night, poor man
Jasper Kiergarten: ah yes
Jasper Kiergarten: and he’s been busy mustering militia volunteers
Wolf Copperfield: tell me about it! I was there when it exploded!
Jasper Kiergarten: we’ve lost Jed too, it seems
Serafina Puchkina: This is really impressive, Jasper
support the salon: Thanks CeAire
Jasper Kiergarten: oh ty
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Jasper!
Jasper Kiergarten: hehee
Jasper Kiergarten: ah
Jasper Kiergarten: you’re back
Jasper Kiergarten: 😀
Jasper Kiergarten: should make you a belt that will have room for the ’51
Jedburgh30 Dagger: yeah..
Serafina Puchkina: wow,that’s some knife there, Jed
Jasper Kiergarten: bayonet for the babbage service rifle
Jedburgh30 Dagger: I guess I rate a sword now
Jasper Kiergarten: 🙂
Jasper Kiergarten: Taking her down folks
Jasper Kiergarten: any last looks
Jasper Kiergarten: get them in
Hawc Decosta: This has been a great event, thanks for hosting Viv!
Wolf Copperfield: well, I’m headed to a sanctuary from all this lag to let my computer recover
Wolf Copperfield: WONDERFUL event mate, thank you for hosting this
Serafina Puchkina: Thank you for coming!
Hawc Decosta: G’nite!
Viv Trafalgar: goodnight!
Jedburgh30 Dagger: that is one hell of a model Jasper
Viv Trafalgar: thank you!
Jasper Kiergarten: yes, excellent event viv and sera
Jasper Kiergarten: as always
Jasper Kiergarten: ty Jed
Serafina Puchkina: Thank you!
Wolf Copperfield looks out the window at the sun
Wolf Copperfield: good day!
Jedburgh30 Dagger: Viv and Sera, once again…
Wolf Copperfield: hehehe
Jedburgh30 Dagger: good job ladies!
Hawc Decosta: Thanks Serafina!
Jasper Kiergarten: Taking her down folks
Jasper Kiergarten: any last looks
Jasper Kiergarten: get them in

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